The record for an overhead axle lift is about 200 kg, so I am getting pretty close
Recently on an HIT board the moderator wrote, “When you punch someone faster, it’s harder and more forceful thus you will inflict more damage.”
He was saying this in support of the notion that fast lifting involves greater forces than slow lifting. This, of course, is not true;
Here is the force-velocity curve (http://www.unmc.edu/physiology/Mann/mann14.html);
Force-velocity curve. Velocity of shortening (ordinate) is plotted against the load (force) applied to the muscle (abscissa). As the load increases, the velocity of shortening decreases. The curve is extrapolated back to zero load, yielding the maximum velocity the muscle can achieve, Vmax. (Aidley DJ: The Physiology of Excitable Cells. Cambridge, Cambridge Univ Press, 1971)
If you if you look at the following squats you will see that as the weight gets heavier the lift gets slower. Thus I lift 173 kg slower than 163 kg;
Of course I could take an empty bar and squat really fast and will generate more force than if I took that bar and moved slow but it will never be as high as the force I produce with heavy weights.
The reason for this is at slower speeds more myosin-actin crossbridges act at a time. The faster the contraction the less myosin-actin crossbridges act at a time because they have to pass on to one another to maintain continuous movement (see muscles).
The force associated with the fast movement in a punch is due to deceleration not the muscular effort at the point of contact. Thus I might take a bowling ball and bowl it with minimal muscular effort yet if it bashes into a wall at the other end it will create high a high force as it decelerates – for example a big swing of the ball with say 10 lbs of force over 2 metres will be magnified to a force of 2000 lbs if the ball decelerates over 1 centimetre. However my body only generates 10 lbs of force.
See force for a discussion of forces.
And… well that’s it. It really can’t be any simpler. Use a light weight and you will be able to move fast, use a heavy weight and the movement will be slow. You cannot generate a high force at a high speed.
And of course I not talking about taking light weights and moving them artificially slow…
Sumo quick question please.
If I am repping say 70% as fast as possible, at both transitions from positive to negative and from negative to positive, would in those two transitions be a place where the barbell is at zero speed ??? I say no, as there is a continuous movement of the barbell.
As you know, when you lift a weight of 100 pounds you need 100.1 pounds of force to move it, but to keep it moving you only need a 100 pounds to keep it moving, thus when going from both transitions I must be in motion. As it is far easier to lift a weight when you do the negative first and then the positive, thus as it is in motion.
Hope I am right, but as Einstein not around, thought I would ask one of the second best.
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Wayne
Hi Sumo,
I did not want that to sound like I was being smug or anything, as I am not that type, and I know you physics is 95% better than mine is, I just know the basics, but enjoying learning more. In addition, I am sure and hope if there were anything wrong in what I wrote, you would tell me. Thx for you time again.
WHAT !!! My Grammar bad ??? Yes it is, most of the time in English class at school, we just talked with the teacher about everyday life. Also at that time, I was more interested in training and Bruce Lee, and learning my wrought iron trade in my Fathers workshop.
Would it be possible to work out the force of ??? Let us say a 90kg weight, dropping at .5 of a second for .5m, then immediately after .5m the lifter exerts his full force/strength for the concentric. As we know when a given load is lifted or lowered very fast, the acceleration component means that the forces exerted on the load (and thereby by the muscles) by far exceeds the nominal weight of the load. IF YOU HAVE TIME THAT IS.
Did you try your bench with bigger diameter and thinner plates on ??? You would find it far easier with the exact same weight. It must be because of gravity, air resistance, drag, torque and leverage, but I know you know far more about it that me. Its like when lifting a 112-cement bag above your head, it is far easier to lift the same weight on a barbell.
Thx for your time again.
Wayne
Which is more than can be said for your terrible grammar…
Hi Sumo,
As you can see I read the artice. Seems all I wrote was write.
Wayne
Wayne, please read the following article; http://sumoman.com/articles/2008/jan2008/force.html
Please say if I am messing your web site up, and I will E-mail you, that is if you have time for this.
Sumo wrote,
And thereby conclude that high acceleration equals high force.
Wayne wrote,
But higher acceleration with the same weight does equals high force/strength.
Sumo wrote,
it seems that actin-myosin energy cycle times are limited therefore faster contractions necessarily involve fewer actin-myosin bonds.
Wayne wrote,
I think they are when speeds get very fast, like free hand fast punches.
Sumo wrote,
The lifter’s max force of 1000 N would never be exceeded – faster moves would not involve a force higher than 1000 N.
Wayne wrote,
However, the lifter will be taking more than his max force of 1000 N. As in the fast transition from negative to positive, this is where maximum size and strength is produced some say, as force can get up to 120 to 140% Call MMMTs {Momentary Maximum Muscle Tensions} That is one of the forces we have been trying to work out, hold on I think your next writings; Impact may help me, no that’s over my head, but Examples, I can easy understand.
Would it be possible to work out the force of ??? Let’s say a 90kg weight, dropping at .5 of a second for .5m, then immediately after .5m the lifter exerts his full force/strength for the concentric. As we know when a given load is lifted or lowered very fast, the acceleration component means that the forces exerted on the load (and thereby by the muscles) by far exceeds the nominal weight of the load.
Thx for you time, if you have the time.
Wayne
Hi sumo,
I know for some videos of the axle lift, boat pull dead lift and farmers walk from 2009 final if you want to look ??? Two secs let me find it. You may have to go to the Polish site and remember the name of the thread and page number, best part is you can download the videos on to your face book in less than a second. In addition, there are some great candied photos of Mariusz. If you do not know the results and do not want to know, do NOT follow this link.
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Thx for the reply.
Will have a read of that force discussion now.
I know all about the force-velocity curve, and that you can generate more force on a heaver object than a lighter one, and it will be moving slower, and in NO way am I trying to tell you about physics, as you are one of the best I know on the subject . I imagine you speed read what I wrote, and it’s pretty much correct, hope so anyway
When you punch someone faster, it’s harder and more forceful thus you will inflict more damage.”
He was saying this in support of the notion that fast lifting involves greater forces than slow lifting.
If you see where I am coming from, the above is true, is it not,
But what I was saying in our debate over at Ellington’s, was that you will produce more force and power {energy work} moving faster with the same weight barbell in the same time frame, like 2/4 rep = 1 rep = 6 seconds, .5/.5 rep = 6 reps = 6 seconds. However, this other person seems to say there is the same amount of force in both reps and more energy used in the slower one.
Here is the last part from the debate, if you have time.
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Wayne